Well, here's a question for you
Jul. 10th, 2003 02:12 am![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
azuriteLots of anime and manga fans here on my LJ friends list. What's your take on this (comment, since I'm too poor to have a paid account where I can make polls!):
Is it better to rely on scanlations and fan translations of anime and manga, rather than pushing American companies to license the product?
Here's what I've heard many people say on the fullmoon_wo_sagashite@yahoogroups ML:
* It's better that we rely on fan translators, because that way we're not getting ripped off by American companies that could really care less about the actual quality of the work than how much they sell it for.
- I have to agree on this point, at least a little. I tend to buy the Japanese manga at Japantown for $5.50 because not only do I know I am supporting the original artist, but in trying to read the original, I get more story, higher quality art, and I improve my Japanese. The catch is, it's pretty hard to read Japanese all the time. In comparison to many American licensed titles, it's sad how they butcher manga-- they blow up the image size, deteriorate quality, and then demand an extra $5 for a stupid cover! Many times they don't bother to even keep the original format, and images look strange. Or how about when their translating job is half-assed and rushed, or messy? That's even worse! Manga is supposed to be an art form!
And as for anime-- well... I honestly hate the quality of dub anime. Rarely do I find an anime with decent dubbing, and FMOS (the primary title I'm concerned with here) is too touchy to mess up. After all, it's an anime about SINGING! You can't have crappy people doing it! And assuming some company is generous enough to license FMOS with subtitles, the current running price/episode is about $5/ea. That translates to a $15+ DVD, because the trend is to only put 3 episodes on a DVD. WHY? Japanese episodes are only 22 minutes long, on average, and 3 of them is only 66 minutes! That's half as much as most feature length movies that get put on DVD-- and not including 'special features' like normal anime and manga DVDs include (when you get them from Japan).
* If we rely on fan translators, the original artist isn't getting an ounce of the credit or the money for it. That results in less quality titles getting imported to the US, and less for those "bad" companies to translate. It's a double edged sword.
- Also true. It's sad to think that fan translators never get any credit after months (or sometimes even years) of translating a manga, scanning it, etc. and then *poof* some American company swoops in and claims rights to it, and does a 10x worse job than FANS! That's why the industry needs to be made up of people that CARE about what they do, that weren't marketing or advertising majors, but people interested in Japan's culture, in anime, in manga! That way, titles that have never been heard of by fan translators can be licensed first, licensed WELL, sold for a price otaku won't MIND paying, and everyone will walk away happy!
* Yeah, but why is it that those companies always target their anime and manga to specific groups? It's not like it's only pre-teen girls that like Sailormoon, or perverted college guys that like Chobits.
- Again, true. I've liked Sailormoon for a long time-- and I have plenty of friends older than me that still like it. And personally, in comparison to the original depth of the Sailormoon storyline, I find it sad that people have such a stereotypical view of anime and manga, and Sailormoon especially. Just look at Pokemon! *shudder* True, many anime and manga ARE targeted towards kids, but several popular titles AREN'T-- and when they're released in the States, they become targeted either for "kids" or for "adult males." What about teenage girls? Or adult females? What about guys that AREN'T perverted, and happen to like Shojo? Or titles that don't have much romance, and focus primarily on action or drama?
* So our stuff is all for nothing once it gets licensed by an American company- even if we started work on a translation first, or are doing a better job?
- It would be nice if fan translations could be produced on the mass market, that way everyone could work together to produce a quality anime or manga for English-speaking audiences that fans would truly enjoy. But sadly, most fan translators can barely get by paying for the DSL and CDs, along with software to download and subtitle anime... and then there's always the cost of manga and translating. Companies HAVE that money. It would be nice if the two could work together... if companies could research fan translations first, get some insight into the title before they kill it twenty million times over. Besides, intellectual rights will only get you so far. I mean, how many of us are doing something "illegal" by having an MP3 on our computer of a CD we don't own? Copyright issues are one thing in the US, but a bird of a different flock in Japan. Just because you own a copy of the manga doesn't mean you own the RIGHTS to it. So... we're stuck.
* I'm okay with translating it, licensing it and all that... but please, anyone but Tokyopop!
- Well, what can I say? I hate Tokyopop, but I love Tokyopop. They did a terrible job with Sailormoon, but they're getting better, now that they're paying more attention to what the fans actually *want.* They're starting to hire people that are actually INTERESTED in anime and manga-- though admittedly, the way they produce some manga (*coughcough*InitialD, PeachGirl!*coughcough*) downright STINKS, even if it is in the "right-to-left format." I can't stand them leaving the kanji in-- I always like a "thoroughly translated manga," so I'm not stuck wondering what "this says" or what "that says." I remember reading the translation of Evangelion, and that stunk, because I had to keep flipping to the back of the book to read translations of words and kanji! So... maybe give another company, like Viz a chance. Or DarkHorse. There's other companies besides Tokyopop, you know.
The sad thing, I must continue, is how long it takes most companies to get things out. Okay, so let's say X title gets licensed! How long before we actually SEE anything? And even if something gets butchered to be put on TV (it happened for the *shudder* WB, and it happens for cable stations like Cartoon Network), they don't ALWAYS release an uncut version. Lord knows I'd *love* to get my hands on an original version of the Yu-Gi-Oh anime, but nooo... only the uncut manga is available. You're not "allowed" to edit a manga, at least not the actual art/story parts-- that's destruction and defacing of copyrighted property. But anime-- that's something difference. TV censors, cable companies-- they're all really stiff and annoying. We're better off pushing for Ranma-like translations, that offer dub/sub on the same DVD, with 6 episodes/DVD or VHS, and uncut manga translation. Forget FMOS being on TV-- it's too deep.
Lots of stuff people on the list have had to say-- I'm glad that it's so active. I wonder where it'll go from here, and what YOUR take on all this is. ^_^ Let me know.
Is it better to rely on scanlations and fan translations of anime and manga, rather than pushing American companies to license the product?
Here's what I've heard many people say on the fullmoon_wo_sagashite@yahoogroups ML:
* It's better that we rely on fan translators, because that way we're not getting ripped off by American companies that could really care less about the actual quality of the work than how much they sell it for.
- I have to agree on this point, at least a little. I tend to buy the Japanese manga at Japantown for $5.50 because not only do I know I am supporting the original artist, but in trying to read the original, I get more story, higher quality art, and I improve my Japanese. The catch is, it's pretty hard to read Japanese all the time. In comparison to many American licensed titles, it's sad how they butcher manga-- they blow up the image size, deteriorate quality, and then demand an extra $5 for a stupid cover! Many times they don't bother to even keep the original format, and images look strange. Or how about when their translating job is half-assed and rushed, or messy? That's even worse! Manga is supposed to be an art form!
And as for anime-- well... I honestly hate the quality of dub anime. Rarely do I find an anime with decent dubbing, and FMOS (the primary title I'm concerned with here) is too touchy to mess up. After all, it's an anime about SINGING! You can't have crappy people doing it! And assuming some company is generous enough to license FMOS with subtitles, the current running price/episode is about $5/ea. That translates to a $15+ DVD, because the trend is to only put 3 episodes on a DVD. WHY? Japanese episodes are only 22 minutes long, on average, and 3 of them is only 66 minutes! That's half as much as most feature length movies that get put on DVD-- and not including 'special features' like normal anime and manga DVDs include (when you get them from Japan).
* If we rely on fan translators, the original artist isn't getting an ounce of the credit or the money for it. That results in less quality titles getting imported to the US, and less for those "bad" companies to translate. It's a double edged sword.
- Also true. It's sad to think that fan translators never get any credit after months (or sometimes even years) of translating a manga, scanning it, etc. and then *poof* some American company swoops in and claims rights to it, and does a 10x worse job than FANS! That's why the industry needs to be made up of people that CARE about what they do, that weren't marketing or advertising majors, but people interested in Japan's culture, in anime, in manga! That way, titles that have never been heard of by fan translators can be licensed first, licensed WELL, sold for a price otaku won't MIND paying, and everyone will walk away happy!
* Yeah, but why is it that those companies always target their anime and manga to specific groups? It's not like it's only pre-teen girls that like Sailormoon, or perverted college guys that like Chobits.
- Again, true. I've liked Sailormoon for a long time-- and I have plenty of friends older than me that still like it. And personally, in comparison to the original depth of the Sailormoon storyline, I find it sad that people have such a stereotypical view of anime and manga, and Sailormoon especially. Just look at Pokemon! *shudder* True, many anime and manga ARE targeted towards kids, but several popular titles AREN'T-- and when they're released in the States, they become targeted either for "kids" or for "adult males." What about teenage girls? Or adult females? What about guys that AREN'T perverted, and happen to like Shojo? Or titles that don't have much romance, and focus primarily on action or drama?
* So our stuff is all for nothing once it gets licensed by an American company- even if we started work on a translation first, or are doing a better job?
- It would be nice if fan translations could be produced on the mass market, that way everyone could work together to produce a quality anime or manga for English-speaking audiences that fans would truly enjoy. But sadly, most fan translators can barely get by paying for the DSL and CDs, along with software to download and subtitle anime... and then there's always the cost of manga and translating. Companies HAVE that money. It would be nice if the two could work together... if companies could research fan translations first, get some insight into the title before they kill it twenty million times over. Besides, intellectual rights will only get you so far. I mean, how many of us are doing something "illegal" by having an MP3 on our computer of a CD we don't own? Copyright issues are one thing in the US, but a bird of a different flock in Japan. Just because you own a copy of the manga doesn't mean you own the RIGHTS to it. So... we're stuck.
* I'm okay with translating it, licensing it and all that... but please, anyone but Tokyopop!
- Well, what can I say? I hate Tokyopop, but I love Tokyopop. They did a terrible job with Sailormoon, but they're getting better, now that they're paying more attention to what the fans actually *want.* They're starting to hire people that are actually INTERESTED in anime and manga-- though admittedly, the way they produce some manga (*coughcough*InitialD, PeachGirl!*coughcough*) downright STINKS, even if it is in the "right-to-left format." I can't stand them leaving the kanji in-- I always like a "thoroughly translated manga," so I'm not stuck wondering what "this says" or what "that says." I remember reading the translation of Evangelion, and that stunk, because I had to keep flipping to the back of the book to read translations of words and kanji! So... maybe give another company, like Viz a chance. Or DarkHorse. There's other companies besides Tokyopop, you know.
The sad thing, I must continue, is how long it takes most companies to get things out. Okay, so let's say X title gets licensed! How long before we actually SEE anything? And even if something gets butchered to be put on TV (it happened for the *shudder* WB, and it happens for cable stations like Cartoon Network), they don't ALWAYS release an uncut version. Lord knows I'd *love* to get my hands on an original version of the Yu-Gi-Oh anime, but nooo... only the uncut manga is available. You're not "allowed" to edit a manga, at least not the actual art/story parts-- that's destruction and defacing of copyrighted property. But anime-- that's something difference. TV censors, cable companies-- they're all really stiff and annoying. We're better off pushing for Ranma-like translations, that offer dub/sub on the same DVD, with 6 episodes/DVD or VHS, and uncut manga translation. Forget FMOS being on TV-- it's too deep.
Lots of stuff people on the list have had to say-- I'm glad that it's so active. I wonder where it'll go from here, and what YOUR take on all this is. ^_^ Let me know.
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American business has to expand to improve
Date: 2003-07-10 03:26 pm (UTC)But it's a double-edged sword regarding whether or not to support American anime. If we do support it and buy DVD's, then we are getting high quality anime, while having to pay $5-10 per episode. This would encourage the companies to continue their practice, which does kinda guarantee at least that they would prosper and more anime would come our way.
And really, the only way to get them to improve their quality, like dubbing and eps per DVD, is to give them the money so they could improve such things. Or at least be rich enough so they don't have to gouge the desperately prices which drove me to bootlegs.
I don't think that the American anime business is at the point where normal Americans actually care about the quality of what they put out. Let's face it, it's not like the movie industry or even the videogame industry with billion dollar yearly revenues. They don't have the resources yet. But the only way for them to get the resources is for us to support them.
As for fansubbing, well that's been going on since I was like 5 years old, so I'm going to argue against time honored tradition. It gives us so much more anime after all, than the American companies do.
Regarding Americanized manga, I've only read stuff coming out of Dark Horse, which has the excellent Studio Proteus doing the translations so there's nothing to complain about there. I always see like 2 dozen kids sitting in Borders reading the stuff, which frankly shocks me because I support American comic books which has next to no one reading them. Why doesn't anyone read Strangers in Paradise? It's just as good as any realistic based shoujo.
*sigh*
Anyway, I don't really see the American manga market in any sort of trouble if even 2 of those people in Borders buys a manga because right there th manga industry would've made more money than the comic book industry.
Which reminds me, I really need to get Blue Monday, hope Borders still has some.
no subject
Date: 2003-07-11 01:37 am (UTC)The problem with translating anime/manga is that for so many years comic books and animation have been viewed as for children only. So, when these obviously American companies are given the task to translate anime and manga they think back to what they are, if you'll forgive the term, brainwashed, into thinking is appropriet. It boils down to this: If it's cartoon-ish, its for children.
With that in mind, when they begin to translate they dumb down such concepts as the deaths in Sailormoon or the complexity of Kenshin's promise to not kill. Why? Because they don't think that children will understand it. Problem? Children aren't the primary target audience of either of those two animes.
So, when a fan comes along after having seen what has been done to a show that they have grown to love they decide that they want others who would not normally have the chance to see WHY they love the anime/manga so much. They work very hard to properly translate the anime/manga so that nothing is lost in the translation.
Often times I can listen to a Japanese language version and pick up where they have dumbed down a plot point or the harsh language used. Suddenly words such as "kuso" come to mean "darn". Most otakus can tell you that "kuso" does NOT mean anything close to "darn".
While it may be unlawful for fans to translate manga and anime, it boils down to that fans DO know best, because they're the ones who will be buying it. I don't buy as much anime and manga as I did just a year ago because I came to realize how horrible of a job they were doing. I educated myself in the Japanese language and culture and began to spot the flaw in the business.
It isn't even the price so much as how they are handling the quality and translations. I have no problem paying $10 for a translated manga because they have to pay the money to get the manga translated and they have to pay for the rights to the manga and other things like that.
Companies need to realize that while some shows, such as Pokemon, are more for children, others are not and should not be marketed as such. Dragonball, while enjoyable for kids, has some elements in it that adults find humorous that are completely left out of the dubbing and even left much more mild in the liscensed version. If they could realize that there IS a happy medium for good translating and a core audience of pre-teens through adults, they would realize that they could make more money.
Adults are the bread makers in households, not chilren. It is, in the end, an adults decision to buy manga and anime for chilren, as well as the products that go along with it. If they could realize this, they could target not only children, but adults as well. Really, alls it would take is a few changes in their handling of plot lines. Such as leaving them ALONE.
Whew, that's my rather muddled take on it! ^^;
I have to admit, they ARE getting better. If they weren't, I wouldn't be watching Lupin III on TV right now.