Fangirl language

[azurite]

I just finished reading "Bless Me, Ultima" the other day, and it's often reviewed and celebrated as being one of the best pieces of Chicano literature out there. So of course, the pages are liberally sprinkled with Spanish. Not all of them are translated within context, mind you-- I had to look up the meanings of many words to really understand just what it was some of the characters were saying.

Now, I know there's a difference between published literature and fanfiction, but in terms of writing in general, why is it acceptable to use foreign languages (e.g. that of a character who is speaking or thinking) in literature, but not in fanfiction? Why does the use of Japanese in an anime fanfic (assuming said fic's canon takes place in Japan... maybe Yu-Gi-Oh! or Sailor Moon, for example) make it "Fangirl Japanese?"

I understand practically every language in the world will have a number of words that don't translate perfectly to English. Even if there is a passable English equivalent, that doesn't mean it'll "sound right" in the context of a particular character speaking/thinking, or in a particular situation.

For example, it's always awkward in Sailor Moon fic when you're trying to emphasize how Usagi's English isn't so great. How can you do that where the reader will understand Usagi's struggle, but the words she says still aren't properly constructed?

I was just as guilty as the next "fangirl" of using Japanese back in the day, but I stopped after
a) I learned Japanese
b) I learned more about writing
c) I realized that most Japanese words and expressions have a perfectly good equivalent in English and, at the time, there was no plausible reason NOT to use the English equivalent

I wonder if there might be certain words that are fine to use in the original Japanese, because they don't really translate over as well as people think. I know off the top of my head that miko and kami fit the bill to me-- a "miko" isn't EXACTLY a priestess, and "kami" isn't a god-- not exactly, anyway. Plus, the honorifics don't translate over perfectly: "-san" is not = Mr. or Ms., "-sama" is not = Lord or Lady/Master or Mistress/etc. and many of the others (-dono, -chan, etc.) don't even have anything REMOTELY close to it in English!

So, what's your opinion? When might it be okay to use Japanese --without it being of the "fangirl" variety?

Comments

[heartless-vaz.livejournal.com]

I just assumed things like dono, san, sama, chan, kun were just nicknames and all meant a certain view depending on what you thought of the person.

[azurite]

No, they're not "nicknames" or anything-- the honorifics you use (or don't use) with someone are extremely telling of your relationship with them. Using the wrong one can have implications to anyone that overhears, or can really hurt the feelings of someone who thinks they have a particular relationship with you, but the honorific you use with them indicates otherwise.

It does have a lot to do with perspective, though: for example, Kaiba thinks he's the cream of the crop, so he'll never use any honorifics for anyone, not even Yuugi, who he grudgingly respects, or people he doesn't know well enough to really judge, like Mai and Anzu (he just refers to them by their family names alone; it's rude, but at least better than calling them "Mai" and "Anzu"). Yuugi, on the other hand, is polite to a fault, even to people that are evil to him: he calls Kaiba "Kaiba-kun" (because Kaiba is younger than him), and even though he's best friends with Jounouchi, calls him by his family name, rather than his given name (Katsuya), and he uses the -kun honorific with him, too. The only person Yuugi doesn't use an honorific for AT ALL (as far as I can tell) is Anzu-- and that's because she's been his friend for years. But were Yuugi to introduce Anzu or Jounouchi to someone else, he might change the honorific used. And one never uses an honorific with themselves (though some people do use pretty uppity pronouns- Japanese has more than just "I" and "You" and "We" and things like that-- their pronouns carry specific context within them, like "Teme" really translates to "You," but it's an extremely RUDE way of saying "you," like you're pointing right at someone (with your middle finger) and inherently saying, they're a bastard/bitch).

[aelibia.livejournal.com]

In my opinion, it would only be acceptable to use Japanese phrases and words in a fic centered around a Japanese lifestyle or family situation, but only if they're in another country, and they're still regarded as Japanese. Sort of an immigrant situation. Using English, English, English, and then a random Japanese whatever just invokes an eyeroll from me.

"Daddy, you should've seen that puppy today. It was so kawaii."

"I don't know what you're saying because I speak English. Here, have a dango. That's Japanese food. We're in Japan."

"Hai, tousan. That means yes."

DENIED.

Because it's common for a family to use frequent alterations of language if they're bilingual. My sister married a Hispanic man, and there's no telling what language they'll talk in at any given moment, and sometimes it's just Spanglish.

Like, if someone did a Yu-Gi-Oh! Alternate Universe fic that took place in France, and made the characters all French, using Japanese words here and there to remind everyone that the fandom originated in Japan is just annoying and unnecessary. And fics in which the writers unconsciously (or maybe not) integrate American ways of living or thinking, and simultaneously add the Japanese just play off as awkward to me. But if they're specifically in Japan, the language should be uniform, because they wouldn't really stop and think what language they're talking in, if you know what I mean.

It's good to be careful with the Japanese words, and it's better if the people who use them actually have a knowledge of the language, like you do. I'm not annoyed as much when I know a person knows what the hell they're talking about. Just the slightest cultural differences can make it look bad to me, since I've studied cultural psychology independently and tend to be very attuned to how people integrate culture into writing.

I'd say the best way to do a fic if you're not sure how you want to use Japanese whatever is the obscure way. In the immortal words of Little Kuriboh, "Welcome, Miss Ishtar. On behalf of the Domino Museum I'd like to welcome you to America. Or Japan. I'm not quite sure where we are, it's pretty vague." I just love fics like that where the author isn't trying to constantly remind me where people are, just because they feel like it. "We'll go over to San Fransisco. That's in America, by the way." I KNOW. STOP IT. STOP IT RIGHT NOW.

Good gracious, that's a monster. So what's your pet peeve? Mine is 'Oh, Kami.' xD It makes me cringe.

[azurite]

Frankly I find "Oh Ra" or "By Ra" and similar 1000x more annoying than "Oh Kami" or whatever. It's like trying to localize a character or something... even if the meaning of the word "kami" is not quite equal to "god" or even "gods," it's contextually correct-- people in Japan do say "Kami-sama" in reference to some higher power, and it is pretty standard practice to translate it to "God," because that's just the closest meaning. So someone saying "Kami-sama... onegai!" is virtually the same as saying "Please, God...!" But doing the same with any deity? I can't stand it.

Yami no Yuugi, whether as himself or as Pharaoh (or if people are whack and give him his own body without prior explanation) would NOT be so blasphemous as to say "By Ra!" or something. (And I get the sinking sensation that the dub did do this, thereby making it canon, in a sad sense.) Plus, even if he were to swear, he wouldn't cite Egyptian gods to do it (as Yami no Yuugi). The names of other cultures' gods (or words for "god" or similar) are not replaceable in common English expressions like that!

[aelibia.livejournal.com]

Ha, so true. Reminds me of when I was in Buenos Aires for the first time, and we were all sitting around a table telling jokes, and my sister and her husband would translate them back and forth. A couple jokes didn't work, like the squirrel across the road one (they don't have squirrels there) and all the blonde jokes. As it turns out, they tell jokes about people from Spain being stupid, not blonde people. So you're right, some stuff just can't be translated directly to English and make sense at the same time.

You should write a oneshot or something breaking as many rules as possible that you hold dear to sane fanfiction. xD It's a great release, trust me. I did that for smut once, and I still get reviews for it, for some reason. You can only hear 'her eyes burning with lustful intentions' and 'his glorious manhood' so many times before you break down into hysterical laughter.

Forgive the Shakespeare reference; I've got an exam in 2 days.

[geniusgirl.livejournal.com]

I think the reason we accept the presence of foreign words in published literature but not in fanfiction has already been pointed out in your post. You said you stopped using "fangirl Japanese" when you learnt formal Japanese. The problem with fangirl any-language is mostly, I believe, rooted in the fact that fangirls simply cannot speak the language of their characters and thus butcher it remorselessly in their sorry attempts to use it. This offends the sensibilities of anyone who can speak it or at least understand in context.

As for why we would accept these same words in literature, I think this is because whenever it appears, we are usually confident in the author's (or the editor's) ability to utilize the language and recognize that its presence in the text carries some significant weight or meaning. Not only do we have "untranslatable" words but we also have moments where the force of something is only conveyable through the use of it in its original language. While there might be a perfectly good translation of it in English, we might find that it holds a power or poetry that is inimitable in translation. Even Shakespeare uses direct quotes from the Latin in his early plays (I suppose we all go through that fangirl stage, even the Bard :P -- see Titus Andronicus esp.) but he was a gifted writer for a reason -- he realized that at times his audience would understand the power or appreciate the effect of some his quotations but, as he progressed, he also realized that his audience was largely common and therefore he began to tone down the "intellectuality".

Just last semester I submitted a piece of original fiction based in Japan to a class workshop. I used a number of Japanese words, however, each was painstakingly researched and I edited the story several times before I was completely satisfied that each Japanese term in the story would serve a purpose. In fanfiction, I have found authors (other than myself) who have this approach to their use of Japanese (or any other language). I think this is the only way we can insert foreign languages into our writing, OED accepted terms notwithstanding. Unfortunately, most fanfiction writers do not seem to consider their stories worthy of this depth of consideration. Perhaps they simply do not think like this.

I agree with the commenter who said that the use of Japanese terms when it is accepted that the characters are already speaking Japanese is ridiculous. In this situation, the only things I will accept in the Japanese are terms you cannot translate without some loss of meaning (you can add "engawa" and "kotatsu" to your list because "porch" and "table" don't quite cover it, do they?) and honorifics. I believe honorifics aren't bad, people just go overboard with them and (all too frequently) use them where they should not be used.

[rivingmass.livejournal.com]

I think you answered your own question by posting the three points where you stopped using fangirl Japanese.
The reason it's frowned upon is because the users of any so-called "fangirl" language haven't yet discovered those three points and attempt to insert another language at points in a storyline where it would be either overused, inappropriate, or incorrect.
There is no need to use another language if there is no need to use another language. If there is a need, it had better be correct. Mess up on those points, and you're guilty of a needless fangirlism.