Well, okay

[azurite]

ceruleansan, I'm sorry I didn't come back online tonight. I walked home in 3" high heels (over crappy sidewalk) and wanted to take a nap when I got home... said nap turned into a 6 hour affair, during which I was incapacitated by my rebellious stomach. :( Please tell me more about Veer-Zaara the next time I see you online!

That said... this is (I hope) my last post on ST07. But because it's such a... well, proliferative topic these past few days, I'll honor those who Really Don't Give Two Shakes or Simply Aren't Involved and spare them my long-windedness.

For starters, it's nice to see a prompt news follow-up after the debacle first broke out on the two most recent news posts, which then spawned a separate "explanatory" post from the CEO. So while some have gotten satisfied by the explanations given in barakb25's first post, others are still raising questions for which they believe they have yet to be answered, or for which explanations were not satisfactory enough given the magnitude of the situation.

It's amazing that fandom can be full of such solidarity and yet so fractured; I encountered one user (penguinsane who responded to my comment (Fandom slash =/= pedophiles. And I know that as a HET fan. I don't read or write slash, but that doesn't mean it doesn't have the right to exist.) with this:

Uh, I get that.

I'm just saying that slash communities need to GTFO of my fandom.

Judging by the user icon, s/he's in POTC fandom. Well, cool, so am I. And I don't like Jack x Will or Jack x Norrington or what-have-you either, but I don't go screaming like a harpie saying those communities shouldn't exist in the fandom at all, like they have no right to be there, or the users are mentally deficient in some way, etc.

(And this user started a bunch of wank, which you can read all about at stupid_free, which links back to the original thread... which has exploded, to my surprise.

I'm sure a few people from the Yu-Gi-Oh fandom remembered when I first got into fandom-- I was pretty outspoken of my distaste of yaoi stories, especially when I could see absolutely no way (canonically) that Jounouchi and Kaiba would ever get together, or that Jounouchi and/or Honda had any sort of romantic/sexual relationship with each other, Yuugi, etc. I was especially vocal about this in the author's notes of WDKY at first, and in my ideas planner (back when I was stupid enough to post it online where others could see it). The current version of the author's notes in WDKY 1 reads:

This story does not contain nor do I as an author support yaoi pairings. My stance on them is simple: I have not encountered any good yaoi/shounen-ai fics in the YGOverse, and I don't think people can plausibly write most of the (male) characters in such situations. Don't complain; go find another fic to read if that's what you were looking for.

That author's note from WDKY used to be much more... "inflammatory," shall we say. I tried to tone it down with the above one, but my current stance doesn't agree with that anymore. I've since changed it: (1) There are no slash/yaoi pairings to be found in WDKY, or any of my fics (for the foreseeable future). Why? I'm just not into them for this fandom. Plain and simple as that. Please don't waste your energy trying to convince me.

And that IS how a I genuinely feel, because it's not that I dislike slash or yaoi as a genre or style of writing, nor do I dislike the writers. In fact, many of my friends read/write slash, and I would be foolish to rally against THEM just on the basis of their interest in slash in any of its forms.

Actually, it's more of a particular fandom thing. In Sailor Moon, I've actually read a beautiful Rei x Ami piece before, and I've even tinkered with my own idea for an Usagi x Minako fic. This is coming from the girl who, upon hearing the theories (during the 200 Days of Sailormoon Project) that the animators of the series had some secret Ami x Makoto subtext, was absolutely shocked. I'd never bothered to see things that I wasn't outright looking for. It never occured to me, because to me, the girls were always "just friends." But written a particular way, a lot of "bizarre" or "impossible" relationships aren't so bizarre or impossible after all.

I don't seek out what I don't like to read, and I don't whine (anymore) about the prevalence of yaoi/slash in my fandoms where my favored pairing is a het couple. It's always nice to see other writers who enjoy my favorite pairing, because that means I'm not the only one writing for them. But I've found it's a waste of energy to complain that the fandom is
a) overrun with slash
b) against het
c) set up in such a way that fics for my favored pairing never get written by anyone other than me

In the case of c) and Yu-Gi-Oh, I'm quite pleased to say that's not true in the slightest. That doesn't mean that all the Azureshipping fic out there is fantastic --far from it, to be honest. Ever since it went from being a small crack!pairing to one of the larger, more popular het pairings in the fandom, there have been tons of people writing for it (or trying to, anyway).

penguinsane wondered if it was really a coincidence that fiction communities that contained a dearth of slash were targeted during the suspension spree. The one that was brought up first, pornish_pixies, is a Harry Potter community, and it doesn't take a genius in the fandom to know that with a name like that, it's going to contain adult-oriented fic. Some of it will be slash, some of it may even be bestiality (not that I would seek it out, but I assume that any fic with the Giant Squid is a crack!fic). And as with ANY OTHER GENRE, don't like, don't read. When it comes to not wanting to see it all, if you want it that way, set up your own private community or archive. That's what I did for Seto x Anzu, and I haven't had any rabid slash fans whining to me about how I'm discriminating against them. I'm sure slash fans are well aware of all the places they're welcome to post, and people that like to read that sort of thing for their favored fandoms can go seek it out. Me? I see it all over LJ, but I don't read it if I'm not interested. And I don't let it bother me, or get my panties in a knot, either.

Basically, it WAS a coincidence, because those same "adult" communities probably featured het fics, too. Slash has nothing to do with them getting suspended; it was fic content in general, regardless of pairing. There were particular interests and other keywords that set the suspensions off, and for any adult fanfic community, it wouldn't surprise me if they got caught in the crossfire. For as long as fanficrants has been around, people have been complaining about those keywords (things like "rape" and "incest") being used as plot devices in fic. Forget specifics like fandom or pairing-- it happens everywhere, to everyone. So of course het fics and communities got targeted, too. It's silly to think that LJ is 'purifying' the fic communities because the higher-ups don't like slash. That's ridiculous. Those communities have every right to be there as het or gen communities do.

penguinsane said: Girls today are completely and utterly FACINATED [sic] by slashy pairings... Talk about a sweeping generalization of who likes slash, who writes/reads it, and why! I'm a girl and I'm not into it, but that doesn't necessarily say ANYTHING about the rest of my life or attitude!

The problem is, people can be told that, and they just won't get it. Or they won't WANT to get it. People can hear about this, and even if they're not involved in any way, they'll have some sort of bias about it. Why? Because everyone will have some sort of preconceieved notion about at least one aspect of this whole debacle. Being aware of your own bias can help you stop yourself before you say something stupid, like a blanket statement or mass generalization. It's wrong to lump different people together just by interest, for example.

You also can't "convict" people (you have X interest in your list, therefore you are Y and you are bad, bad, bad!) based on their interests, either. Though LiveJournal is an international community, they are based in the U.S., and the Constitution says that people must have the right to trial before a jury of their peers. Okay, so we might be a person's peers, but there can't be a trial without evidence, without a formal arrest. But people are getting plastered all over the web, saying "Hey, this journal was suspended, they must be a pedophile!" and people jump the gun, figuring pedophiles are child molesters and criminals. WRONG! And there are plenty of people that got wrongfully suspended, too, but they're going to be stuck with those labels that there must be something WRONG with them that got them suspended in the first place. Those people should have been thoroughly investigated by LJ or the appropriate authorities (if there was any actual basis to the idea that criminal acts might be encouraged or promoted on their journals) first. And then LJ should have given warning to the journal owners, giving them a chance to defend themselves. If and only if their defenses are weak or still violate the TOS should any journals have been suspended.

Let's take some examples-- lolita can be more than older men liking young girls. It could be a literary discussion of Nabokov's work, as was the case with the Spanish-speaking community lolita07. It could be a discussion of the Japanese fashion style, which is incredibly popular. There are plenty of ways "lolita" can be more than just the simple, popular definition of the word. Should we use clarifying identifiers to better let people know that we mean something that's perfectly acceptable and legit, in whatever form? For example, shota fiction, or lolita fashion? It seems a bit much. I personally think it's easier to take the single word and get all the results (including those that you may find distasteful or not related to your search) and weed through them to find the ones you DO want, instead of doing an interest-based search that only brings up a FEW results, because people normally interested in something won't go to the extra effort of clarifying it just to avoid this confusion. We didn't have to before, why should we now? Out of fear? It seems ridiculous.

Also, LJ has no right to determine what words, journals, or content are "obscene." Only the U.S. Supreme Court can do that, and that's only if lower courts couldn't do it themselves. Anything considered "obscene" must meet the three-pronged standards of the Miller test, and I don't see anyone mentioning that, or saying they'll be taking this to court.

I'm one of those people that doesn't think an interest MUST be something you like or support. I can be interested in something without loving it to pieces, supporting it, advocating it, etc. etc. If LJ wants to change the interest system to be just "likes," then they should say so. I know the sample form says that interests should fit into sample sentences LIKE "I like _____," but that doesn't mean that those set phrases are the ONLY ones we can think of. Plenty of people said, what if they're interested in something from an academic standpoint? What if they like to discuss how it's presented in culture or society? What about the media? For example, I might rant a lot about rape as a plot device in fanfiction, and so I might put "rape" as an interest, but that doesn't mean I'm a rapist, or that I like rape! If I truly am "anti" something, or want to "prevent" something (as in, I'm dedicated enough to a particular cause to put it into my interests, because I want to seek out like-minded people or communities focused on that subject), then I'll put those things. Like anti-mia, for example. I'm against bulimia, so I'll put that in my interests. But I can't do that with EVERY interest that might have a darker side to it, because my posts about it might not necessarily be related to my dislike of X interest or why we should prevent Y from happening.

Also, why force journal users who may be survivors of rape, etc. to say "I'm interested in this because I was raped as a child," or something? That's the sort of content that is their private information, which they can CHOOSE to disclose, not be legally obligated to it just to avoid a brou-ha-ha like this.

Going back to the whole eye of the storm: pedophilia. It's not a crime; acting on it is. And pedophilia itself is not an act. According to the numbers of psychology students that got entangled in this, something like "pedophilia" might be in their interests because they're analyzing it from the academic or medical perspective, where pedophilia is a mental disorder. That doesn't mean they like it, support it, or have it. Anyone assuming they might is jumping too far with their conclusions.

If you run across someone that you believe is a child molester (or a potential child molester) or other criminal, and LJ says "without proof, we can't do anything," don't just stop and whine about LJ. Take it up with your local authories. Contact Amber Alert. Don't rely on LJ to do everything, because, as a business, there really is only so much they can do. They don't to get sued for breach of contract, unfair termination of services, etc. While you might think, "Oh, they're just looking out for themselves, covering their own asses..." well, why shouldn't they? They're a private business, and they can make up their own rules as they see fit. This is not the free press here on LJ. They can't discriminate against who signs up, or libel members that have signed up (they have, in many cases here; apologies might be enough for some, but not others. What they choose to do about it will depend a lot on the TOS), but if they suddenly want to say "Okay, no posting AT ALL, in ANY FORM about X or Y," then they're within their rights to do that. People that don't like it can and likely will take their business elsewhere. Because LJ hasn't wanted that, they haven't done that.

Speaking of the TOS, EXAMINE IT! Know what you're getting into, and read it often, even if LJ doesn't make any sort of announcement that they've changed it. It may not have been the TOS that you agreed to when you signed up, but your continual use of the service if and when they change it is legal agreement enough. Be sure to know what LJ is "covering their asses" on-- they might say you indemnify LJ and all its agents from any sort of crime, including libel if you use the service. Your use of the service is agreement to a contract-- stop using the Service because you disagree with it, and the contract is broken. You go your separate ways, the end.

The recent changes in the TOS must be addressed in a wide, public forum soon-- not just 'announced' with the expectation that everyone will know where to look and by when to avoid getting their journal suspended if it doesn't comply with the new TOS. Mass emails should be sent out in these cases-- there's really no excuse not to, in my opinion.

WarriorsForInnocence was LOW going to the advertisers with screenshots or whatever of potentially inappropriate communities. One, WFI isn't LJ. They're not LJ users, not LJ staff. They have no right discussing anything with LJ's advertisers. But any advertisers that DID listen to WFI are pretty dumb, too-- they should have investigated on their own (and severed all ties with WFI, thanking them for their concern and then taking care of it ON THEIR END) or contacted LJ without making any threats. But instead, what probably happened is WFI scared the advertisers, and the advertisers scared LJ into acting without thinking.

Now, as for those that were wrongly suspended, I think more than two days of additional paid time (for those that had paid accounts) is in order. Why? Because it's not just about posting access-- they were inadvertantly labeled as pedophiles, child molesters, monsters... all these things. It's not fair to them, because interests by themselves don't paint a whole picture about someone, and they SHOULDN'T. If LJ wants to be sure that particular interests aren't indicative of a journal user who may be promoting or advocating criminal activity, then they should have other required fields in the Profile. And what about any Permanent Account users who may have gotten suspended? What could possibly compensate for the money and loyalty they already given, and then THIS breach of trust? People can't sue to get their reputation back, so LJ should really do everything in their power to keep those users enjoying LJ. And don't be like WFI was with the advertsiers, using bribery of goods or services (or in WFI, forcing the advertisers to "bribe" or "blackmail" LJ into suspending the accounts or risk losing their advertising revenue).

So was all of this an attack on fandom, or an accident that involved fandom? The latter, really, in my opinion, but that doesn't mean that we should brush it aside so easily. Some people were getting way too worked up; others were getting worked up, but rightfully so, because they had a better idea of what was at stake beyond their precious porn. If we focus solely on fandom, we lose sight of the bigger picture about people's rights and LJ's attitude -both as a company and their attitude toward customers who report potential abuse or violation of th TOS. Politics most certainly could have come into play here, especially with the discovery that WFI was an extremely right-wing dominionist group. At first, them pushing their agenda on LJ looked like there was much more going on behind the scenes than there probably was. It was likely very silly to assume that WFI came out of nowhere and had this massive influence on LJ-- but once you bring the advertisers/money into it, of course they have influence! Indirect, wrongful influence, but influence nonetheless.

I would like to think that this isn't just some poorly planned and ill-timed publicity stunt on LJ's part, because if so, it was badly executed and backfired. Theorizing doesn't solve anything, though, so there's no point in asking those kind of leading questions.

Despite the solidarity fandom has shown in the face of this incident, it all goes to show that fandom, above all else, is pretty immature. If you look at any of the news posts since this all started, you'll see people posting things like "FIRST!" and "~Legendary Post~" as if this is some sort of race or contest. It's not a matter of age, either-- fen can act immature even if in real life, they're 30, 40, etc. Many people turned particular aspects of this don't bother to fully understand everything that happened, and in return for the mayhem, they demand lots but accept little. They make mountains out of molehills (albeit very LARGE molehills; still, certain parts of this issue didn't deserve to be blown up the way they were). To those people, why bother? Why bother saying something that isn't helpful, constructive, or somehow related to the topic at hand? Otherwise, it makes you look stupid. To those that say "I don't care!" well... great. If this really does become legendary, your stupidity will be immortalized.

The same thing applies to those who aren't interested or involved in the parts of this that got inadvertantly tangled in the mess-- things like slash, yaoi, etc. But there's a difference between not intentionally seeking out things that squick you for the sole sake of reporting them or whining about them, and stumbling across or "being the victim"/being subjected to something that is "patently offensive" and potentially criminal. The latter can and SHOULD be reported. Immaturity is NOT doing that; it's not being responsible.

People can vent as much as they like, so long as it's somehow helpful to solving this (and if you've paid for it, been suspended, may have been in danger of being suspended, are questioning LJ's attitude/reaction, THAT COUNTS). Otherwise, it really is just pointless whining, especially if your journal was suspended and then restored; what are you fighting for, if not the fact that they screwed up in the first place. Why not then rant in your now-restored journal? Beyond that, it looks like this is cleaning itself up, so why comment if you just want to swear and invoke Godwin's Law? Don't bother complaining about the complainers; you'd be a hypocrite.

Also, why would real criminals/pedophiles be dumb enough to put "pedophilia" in their interest? They'll probably be a bit more subtle about it, as was the case with ones who did "girllove" and similar. You can't think so obviously/obtusely about real pedophiles, what they're like, and what they do.

To those that had this come out of left field... or were living under a rock, or heard about it from someone else... whatever the case may be, don't just rely on second-hand information. FIND OUT FOR YOURSELF! Like, for example, the whole rumor that the WFI site had spyware. I went and checked it out for myself on my PC. I scanned with AdAware and Spyboth S&D both before and after I visited the site using Internet Explorer 7. All the settings were default, and I had no additional Add-Ons. But I had no spyware appear. Perhaps it's because I just navigated through a few sections... but with the way people take care of their computers these days, I really doubt ONE blogger site would have 100+ possible infestations of spyware ready and able to jump onto your computer with just one quick browse of WFI's site. I found nothing, and I ONLY looked at WFI's site. So, much as I hate to proclaim WFI ironically "innocent," I think they are in that respect.

Finally, I wish people would realize that suspension is NOT deletion. Still, "strikethrough" is what happens to deleted AND suspended journals, and some people probably didn't care to click to find out which was which-- they made assumptions and jumped to conclusions. But those wrongfully deleted can and most likely will get everything back. That's not to say this whole thing will just fade into the ether as if it never happened, but still-- it won't cause such a big dent in many communities that they'll never be able to recover. Many people saw this as the "straw that broke the camel's back," and deleted their journals of their own accord-- LJ had nothing to do with it. Keep that in mind, please?

I appreciate anyone who's stuck with me this far and read all this; I appreciate it. I hope this is my last post on the subject, and we can all move on. I don't think there'll be any reason for me to visit LJ's headquarters when I go to S.F., unless it's out of pure interest, not related to this subject at all. It depends on when and how everything gets resolved, but as of right now, I don't think there's much need for me to keep posting on it. I'm just glad I finally finished with this long-winded post.